Working in male dominated fields is never straight forward. From the gender pay gap to discrimination, women have historically often been on the back foot. The last decade has provided monumental strides for women in the workplace, with voices being heard and industries utilising more inclusive practices. But is the world of music stuck in the past? Sammy Stein’s new book, ‘Candid’, explores what it means to be a woman in the modern music industry.
A lecturer in Botany and Horticulture, singer and player of various instruments, Stein has been in bands, played many stages and worked with a plethora of musicians. Having previously taken a deep dive into the culture of women in jazz music, Stein has since examined the music industry as a whole. With interviews from artists spanning a variety of genders, instruments and genres, Stein strikes the perfect balance of informative reading without casting accusation. Her writing is measured, factual and insightful, providing real life accounts from both sides of the story.
On a sunny Tuesday after her morning swim, Stein joined Tea with G to talk about how she conducted her research, the stories she unfolded and what needs to be done next.
Where did the idea for this book come from?
I wrote a book on women in jazz about seven years ago, and that did really well. And what I found then was a lot of women, you know, they loved the music, they loved doing what they were doing, but so many of them talked about the fact that they knew that they got paid less, they found safety issues and everything. And then over the years, as I've written various books, and doing the research, you come across so many reports from all these different countries. And along with those reports that are done by music industry professionals - from all genres - they make recommendations. A lot of them are really simple recommendations, but like the latest one, there was so many recommendations, and it was a parliamentary committee that did it, and they haven't taken up a single recommendation. And I just thought, well, hang on, is anybody actually asking the people in the industry, you know, the people who are going out doing the gigs, going out playing in orchestras, giving their time and their talent, is anybody actually talking to them, and are they talking to each other?
I approached these incredible stars, and I didn't think anybody would come back to me, but so many came back and said, yeah, it's something that we've not really been asked about before, but we'd love to give our side. And then I was talking to some of the musicians, and they said, well, it's also important for people to understand that the men are actually trying to do something as well, because they're very aware that there's this amazing pool of talent out there, but they're not tapping into it because so many women are put off. From being a DJ to doing the technical side to late night orchestras, you always leave a long time after the orchestra. I've had problems leaving gigs, you know, very late at night. And it's a whole sort of work, you know, new, different world. And I just thought, well, somebody needs to actually speak to the women. But as I said, I approached these women and I didn't think anybody would want to write with me. And then suddenly I had all these incredible people coming and saying, ‘can we contribute? Can we be part of this conversation?’ Initially I was just going to do chapter by chapter, question by question, and then it just developed into this incredible conversation that we were all having.
You spoke about getting this great pool of women to be involved, because there's such diversity in the women that you've chosen, in their instruments, in their job roles, in their location, you've got global diversity, you've got LGBTQ diversity. How did you choose the women to be involved?
I did a lot of research, and I listened to some of the music, and it kind of spoke to me. I mean, I'm often led by the music, and then reading about them and their attitudes and their sort of take on things. I wanted to give a male and female perspective of two instrumentalists who have had these decades long, high careers and sort of, it's not really a contrast, but it's, it's two very succinct takes on it.
It's really interesting when you wrote, ‘if women are cheaper and fill venues, then why aren't there more of them headlining shows?’ And it's so valid, if they are a cheaper option, if they're not getting paid the same as their counterparts, why? Why aren't they going there, especially if they're selling out those headline slots?
Well, yeah, because the festival organizers that I contacted a couple of years ago, some of them were actively promoting family days and more females on stage. And what they said was that their audiences grew. They became a lot more diverse; they just grew. And even they were saying, you know, why didn't we do this before?
And I think as well, you touched on in the book, it's so hard to navigate for women, because when they do get to the deserved and recognised positions. It's kind of like, well, you've only got there because of your looks or of how you dress.
I think that's something that women are kind of fighting, if you like. And I mean, I did an outside broadcast for BBC Three and I went, and so many people were coming up to my sound technician and saying, Oh, hello, Sammy. He was like, ‘she's doing the interview’. And I just thought, well, does it make any difference? Because it's the same thing, it's the same recording, it's the same concert, and it should make no difference, but that you're talking to a woman - but some of them found it quite difficult.
In Stein’s book, she asks her panel if they feel the culture around music encourages discrimination. Artist Greta Klein commented on a more micro level, noting that venues don’t always have toilet paper – and by extension, sanitary bins – in the bathrooms. A point that is just as valid as the more macro issues such as post-show networking which Klein notes is a practice that is much more unsafe and uncomfortable for women.
Stein makes a conscious effort to include the male perspective, interviewing a varied group of men from the industry. The overarching theme seemed to be of general acknowledgement towards gender disparity but a lack of identifiable problem areas. Artist Andy Quinn, said, “how many other weird things am I blind to because I've lived in a society where they're normalized?”. Stein goes on to say:
One man said he's taking it upon himself to educate himself. So, he's listening to podcasts from women, he's reading books from women and he's self-educating. One of the men actually said to me - I didn't write it in the book because it wasn't in the right context - but he said, the thing is that we're actually missing out as men because 40 to 50% of the performers, they have problems performing with us when we travel because there isn't always suitable accommodation, there's not suitable facilities. It kind of makes it hard for women to come out and play with us, especially if they then end up leaving at sort of half 12, one o'clock, and they've got to get home somehow - you don't think about that as a man. But we do need to take these barriers away.
Where do you think the crux of the problem is?
I think what it is, I don't think there are bad people. I think there are just these beats are so ingrained and they're so easy. The issue has been talked about for decades, and when you mention it to people - it often comes up because of what I do - and there's often that bloody eye roll, because people have been talking about this for so long, and nothing's really changed. Viewing the women directly and having this conversation, it's not all negative. Many of them have found that men have been incredibly supportive. It's definitely changing. It's just so slow.
Who do you envisage this book is for?
I think it's anyone who's been to a concert, into a gig, likes music, buys music, reads about music. There are positive stories - it's not absolutely doom and gloom. And it is changing, it's just slow.
Were there any barriers for you in terms of finishing the book or getting in published?
I was a little bit nervous about it, because when I did work on gender, there was quite a bit of online bullying from two women. But I think it was more that I was kind of going into their field rather than, you know, because I've never really met them or anything like that. But I found also some of the men that I approached, some of the editors of the magazine, they were saying, you know, why are we even talking about this, it isn't a subject? And that that really kind of shocks me. In some cases, it is necessary to positively discriminate for women, and he's got an actual section for women writers, because I think the editor feels that there isn't room for them. But so many other magazines, women's groups have kind of got in there by making the editors realize that they're not using women. One magazine that I looked at got over 100 contributors, and they've got nine women. I had one guy who just said, well, I've been looking at your work now that I know who you are and you obviously you really don't like men’. And I thought what? It's only because I've written about gender that he thinks that. But he just kind of made that weird assumption.
What do you hope comes then from this book, when it goes out into the world?
I hope an understanding and a realization, and I hope some change. And also, what so many of the women have said is that it's so liberating to be able to be part of this conversation, because it's very much an ongoing conversation, and it's very dynamic…It's like going backstage with hundreds of different genres but you get it all at the same time, and all talking at the same time, and they're all giving their stories.
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